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#2 kirjoitettu 12.02.2006 19:55

You seem to be approaching a certain kind of existentialism, eg. no (absolute) values exist and life should be lived simply for the sake of life itself, for the sake of experiences and existence.

I think there's a lot of sense in the idea you present about people living in different ways, everyone having (or lacking) their own ambitions, values, goals etc. and the end result being a web of such diversity that no one can even begin to understand what it all amounts to. I like the idea that the world is so much bigger than any individual - the innumerable amount of possibilities that one has in life is soothing.

#3 kirjoitettu 12.02.2006 23:06

Exactly, you sum it up quite nicely. I have a bit of a mysticism left in me though, it is hard for me to think that all this wondrous existence is only an elaborate hoax or a meaningless illusion. Something fishy is definitely going on

#4 kirjoitettu 02.03.2006 18:21

Michikawa wrote:

The existence of death, concept of mortality, create absolute boundaries for human life. There's only so much time and only so much possibilities.


Perhaps this is the reason why people usually have a kind of innate belief to after-life and such things as deities and guardian angels. It would seem quite reasonable from the point of view of psychology of religion at least. One could even claim that every human being is by nature a "believer" of some sort and only to become an "atheist" requires a some sort of decision to be made. One can see this very clearly for example in funerals were people that could be considered to be far from religious types are participating to the church service with all the pertinent piety and seriousness. Are they thinking in the back of their minds despite all the obvious secularity of their way of lives that the deceased one still could somehow sense the collective mourning and participation of his relatives? Do they actually think that the deceased one is now "in a better place"? Well anyway, these are just more or less pointless thoughts of mine as every one has to fend for himself eventually in these matters.

Anyway, some theologians (like St. Anselm, 1033-1109) have thought that the fact that every human being has a kind of innate belief to a supreme power, could be used as a proof to the existence of God. This kind of thinking is also in accordance with the Scriptures as can be seen in for example Psalm 14, verse 1: "The fool hath said in his heart, 'there is no God'.".

St. Paul elaborates this idea of innate knowledge of the existence of God yet further in his Epistle to the Romans, chapter 1, verses 16-23:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, 'the just shall live by faith'.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Rom.1:16-23)"

The Book of Ecclesiastes deals with the mortality of man and the more or less temporary quality of everything in this world with exceptional clarity, by the way. I highly recommend this book to every one. Actually, when I read your opinions in this thread, I begin to suspect that you are not unfamiliar with this book. Anyway here's a passage that popped into my mind when I was thinking about the first quote of your text. The point here is that the fate of humans and animals is very much alike - they all will die and turn into dust one day. Therefore one should always seize the moment to be able to achieve happiness.

"And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

All go unto one place; 'all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again'.

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him? (Eccl.3:16-22)"

Michikawa wrotei:

Probably every human ponders every now and then: "Oh, what to do with this life?" In a certain way it's profoundly melancholic but on the other hand quite comforting.


According to St. Paul there seems to be very little that can be done with one's life:

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Rom. 3:19-20)"

Michikawa wrote:

When centuries flow by and then aeons, earth will crumble and the universe will meet it's end, one way or another. Maybe enthropy finishes it's work and everything will be reduced to even, cold mass of matter and emptiness.


Maybe. One can not know for sure. On the other hand there could be an after-life and immortality of spirit like so many religions claim it to be. There's only one way to find out (although I don't recommend trying it out). So, the only thing one can really resort to is blind faith.

St. Paul wrote in his Epistle to the Romans about the concept of faith that leads to the salvation:

"But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, 'Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down from above). Or, 'Who shall descend into the deep?' (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead). But what saith it?

'The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart':
that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, 'Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed'. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For 'whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'. (Rom.10:6-13)"

Michikawa wrote:

...no matter how good one is doing something, there are always people who are even better and people who are not so good. And even if somebody happened to be the best at a certain moment, proving his skills on various competitions and occasions, never having found his better, even then, one cannot be sure, if there weren't somebody, somewhere, who was even better, or somebody in the future, who will be. More probably than not, that is the case. So there's actually no way of achieving absolute, personal place on the top platform.


This is true. That's what Christ probably meant when he said "For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 14:11)" and "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. (John 13:16)".

Michikawa wrote:

There are needs and there are needs.
There are deeds and there are deeds.


This is all of course just a reflection of a value system found in your own head. I'm not saying that this kind of value system is by any means unnecessary though I have been citing the Book of Ecclesiastes and the Epistle to the Romans which both seek to debase all kinds of rigid value systems created by humans. On the contrary it might be very critical for the survival of human species that we actually have a some kind of (more or less) rigid value system that defines what is right and what is wrong. A system of full anarchy could never build a lasting society.

Michikawa wrote:

Whatever change, whatever meaning we can create in this world, it won't last.


This reminds me again of the beginning verses of the Book of Ecclesiastes:

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. (Eccl.1:2-4)"

Michikawa wrote:

It seems that only meaning our deeds and needs have is the effect they have on our state of mind and the effect they have on our present surroundings and the lives of the people that are affected by them.


This is true. At least from the point of view of the modern christianity. "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Rom.10:4)"

Michikawa wrote:

I think mortality and relativity take away needless grief and falseful needs and emphasize things that are more or less independent of their surroundings and based on subjective
experience.


Yes, I agree: "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (Rom.14:17)".

Michikawa wrote:

It's a matter of aspect, or angle of view if you prefer.


Or a matter of personal faith. As the Epistle to the Hebrews put it: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb. 11:1)"

Michikawa wrote:

There's no actual legacy for us to leave behind, so that's not a thing to worry about. There's nothing really to achieve, so that's nothing to worry about. We live our lives as a part of a network and during that time we can pull some strings, but that doesn't really matter because as time goes by the whole network will change, and possible even break and crumble.


Here again the Book of Ecclesiastes tells us the inevitable truth about the vanity of our short lifes. That is, the only reasonable purpose in life is to try and get the most out of it.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. (Eccl.9:5-10)"

One could of course wonder after reading the aforementioned quote that what the heck is the meaning of religion, faith or general mysticism in one's life if the only purpose in life is to get the most out of it. Well, the Book of Ecclesiastes does not seek to debase religion, faith or general mysticism in any way as can be clearly seen if we just take our time to read a bit further. Here are the concluding words of this book:

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (Eccl. 12:13-14)"

Here again, by the way, can be seen the fact that you should always deal with a book of the Scriptures as an entity instead of just ripping of single verses from here and there (like the late Mikseri user "Hengellinen" used to do all the time). Anyway, the point here was simply that even though it is most important to seize the moment in one's life, one must still not forget about God and Eternity, because one day "...the silver cord [will] be loosed, or the golden bowl [will] be broken, or the pitcher [will] be broken at the fountain, or the wheel [will be] broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Eccl. 12:6-7)".

Michikawa wrote:

But human life, it has always been a life of social interaction and community, of culture. From cultures and rulesets of the socities spring forth bases for values and needs, bases for achievements and roles, bases for competition; some of us win and some of us lose.


True. Just like it seems to me that not everybody is going to inherit the kingdom of God according to the Scriptures.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom.8:29-30)"

Michikawa wote:

But nothing of these things are absolute. It's all matter of arrangement and accordance.


Yes, I agree. That's what Christ tried to teach us too as can be clearly seen in the following passage taken from the Gospel of Luke. Here it is pointed out that everything else is relative but the true words of wisdom (that is: the teachings of Christ) will prevail.

"Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. (Luke 10:38-42)"


Michikawa wrote:

It's probably impossible to find two persons from the same time who'd have exactly same principles, views and values. We affect and are affected by our surrounding structures and people who we meet and who we interact with.


Of course. But I still believe that God is the same for every one regardless of personal opinions or beliefs.

"But this man [Christ], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Heb. 7:24-25)"

Michikawa wrote:

From my point of view the whole structure of global human network is and always has been sort of a play or a game.


Yes. That is true. That derives from the basic emotional needs of every human being. The need to get a some sort of satisfaction is probably the most predominant of these needs. Satisfaction is generally gained from winning a competition in a one way or another.

The First Epistle to Timothy from St. Paul deals with this matter as it describes the so called fight of faith: "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. (1 Tim. 6:12)". It is obvious that the purpose of this fight is however not to achieve salvation as that is impossible for a human alone according to the same writer's other texts.

Michikawa wrote:

Rules change all the time, there are people who try to get to the top of the ladder, who think it's about winning or losing and who try to make the best of it but there are also people who get broken on the way and drop out, who crumble under the pressure they pile on themselves when trying to tackle their way through the reefs of social interaction and entrapments of relative needs.


Yes, you are absolutely right. I think that these people you mentioned should really read and understand the Book of Ecclesiastes. I know that my hopes are probably in vain though...

Michikawa wrote:

Some are constantly comparing their status and situation to other people's corresponding ones. Constantly comparing. Constantly mourning and fumbling through this haze of so called meaningfulness.


Although all of this is going to be taken away from us one day. Nothing here lasts forever.

Michikawa wrote:

I saw some documentary on a buddhist festival in India and there was this monk that made permanent impact on me. He had walked to the festival on foot from I don't know how far away exactly, but it was like many hundred miles, and the traveling had took like a year (or was it even two?) from his life. He had traveled like this: always after a few steps he would get down on his knees and touch the ground with his forehead, then rise and take another few steps and so on - continuously, keeping his mind and soul pointing at the buddha and serenity. There was this scar on his forehead which stated quite clearly that this man wasn't any kind of pretender. He said that some parts of the journey had been quite rough, food was scarce and mountain areas were quite tiresome, but people would bring him food from time to time. But there he was, finally at the festival, standing there with all the people, looking really centered and stable and joyful, not wanting to make any kind of fuss about his journey, just spending the moments of his life with dignity and humility, owning nothing but his robe and health.


That is quite a touching story indeed, but sadly it won't change the fact that all the efforts of this noble monk were in vain. In reality he had achieved nothing at all - that is, nothing that would last. In time the illusion of the meaningfulness of his deeds will just fade away just like everything else in this impermanent world of ours. Man simply can't achieve salvation with his own deeds: "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (Rom. 5:6)".

Michikawa wrote:

When I listened to him speak I somehow realized that I would never be able to do anything quite as real, absolutely, devastatingly solid nor beautiful in my life, but at the same moment I also realized that it wouldn't matter, for this man here had shown to everyone, that there's nothing meaningful nor meaningless, nothing to achieve...


Yes. Nothing to achieve at all, like I said above. Just "chasing after the wind"...

Michikawa kirjoitti:

There's just nothing at all It's just so sad that so many of us need to go through so much pain and suffering without any choice at all, and so many of us live their lives wrapped in so overwhelming mass of everything without any idea of what their life is about. And there stands the man who just spent year of his life just walking and kneeling, walking and kneeling. Without anyone telling him to do so, anyone saying that if he did it he'd get something. He just did it.


And he did it without achieving anything of lasting value. Well, perhaps he did succeed to raise some controversy amongst some bystanders at least, dunno. He could have spent his time instead with activities considered "normal" and still it wouldn't have mattered in a larger scale. Actually, St. Paul warned us of these kinds of people in his Epistle to the Colossians:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. (Col.2:16-19)"

Michikawa kirjoitti:

So what are we doing here? What are we doing with our lives? Where are we going? Where do we want to go? What do we truly need and why? Are we sure about that? Aren't those things going to change when time goes by?


These are surely common questions among people and I do not claim to have any final and conclusive answers to them although I have been citing the Scriptures along the way.

Michikawa kirjoitti:

If I try to put in words, how I think about these kinds of things at the moment, I have to say that I do not have any idea, if there truly is such thing as Truth, which could be found. Probably not, maybe even hopefully not.


Surely there must be a some kind of final truth. That is simply inevitable. One could say it is the base of all existence. Without it nothing could exist at all. Although I don't think us humans can ever find out about it during our mortal existence. Of course one can have all kinds of religious and mystical experiences along the way but they are just a bunch of reflections of the real idea of truth - not the image of the truth itself.

Michikawa kirjoitti:

It seems to me that we all share this weird dream, this so called life and depending on circumstances and boundaries, luck and chaos, we all go on our ways basing our actions on so different ideas, values and views that it is impossible to truly grasp what this whole network of lives is truly all about.


You are right. The writer of the Book of Ecclesiastes knew this well:

"I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. (Eccl.1:16-18)"

Michikawa kirjoitti:

Most of us seem to be quite unsure or unhappy about various things during our lives, and maybe some of us even regret and feel remorse before the end.


This too is just vanity of vanities according to the Book of Ecclesiastes.

Michikawa kirjoitti:

But as time goes by, our legacies will wane and generations after generations will cast their choices into the sandy sea of time. To what end?


The Scriptures try to answer this question with incredibly vivid descriptions of the judgement day. Here's one:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev.20:11-15)"

Michikawa kirjoitti:

But as long as there is life to be lived, it is probably worth it to try and find out what are we doing here?


To try is all we mortals can do.

To sum up everything, I would like to cite the following phrase from the Epistle to the Ephesians:

"Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. (Eph.5:6)"

#5 kirjoitettu 03.03.2006 16:31

Wonderful collection of accurate and strong quotes and ideas. It is quite funny how all the thoughts one can make up and run into have probably already been thought and pondered through many times by myriads of people. Circles, circles, round and round we go until the end.